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  • heads up for all the money in the home game!

    Posted by chappo on January 9, 2021 at 8:05 pm

    Final hand of the home game, my best result so far but keen to get peoples thoughts….

    I min raise most buttons regardless of cards.

    PokerStars Home Game Hand #222405912175: {RecPoker Community} Tournament #3096841215, 17000+3000 Hold’em No Limit – Level XVII (800/1600) – 2021/01/09 0:04:15 ET

    Table ‘3096841215 5’ 9-max Seat #2 is the button

    Seat 2: nowthenkb (115084 in chips)

    Seat 6: chappoaustralia (58916 in chips)

    nowthenkb: posts the ante 200

    chappoaustralia: posts the ante 200

    nowthenkb: posts small blind 800

    chappoaustralia: posts big blind 1600

    *** HOLE CARDS ***

    Dealt to chappoaustralia [6c 5c]

    nowthenkb: raises 1600 to 3200

    chappoaustralia: raises 5440 to 8640

    nowthenkb: calls 5440

    *** FLOP *** [Ad 3c 4s]

    chappoaustralia: bets 8840

    nowthenkb: calls 8840

    *** TURN *** [Ad 3c 4s] [Tc]

    chappoaustralia: bets 41236 and is all-in

    nowthenkb: calls 41236

    *** RIVER *** [Ad 3c 4s Tc] [8s]

    *** SHOW DOWN ***

    chappoaustralia: shows [6c 5c] (high card Ace)

    nowthenkb: shows [5h Ac] (a pair of Aces)

    nowthenkb collected 117832 from pot

    chappoaustralia finished the tournament in 2nd place and received 197200.

    nowthenkb wins the tournament and receives 295800 – congratulations!

    *** SUMMARY ***

    Total pot 117832 | Rake 0

    Board [Ad 3c 4s Tc 8s]

    Seat 2: nowthenkb (button) (small blind) showed [5h Ac] and won (117832) with a pair of Aces

    Seat 6: chappoaustralia (big blind) showed [6c 5c] and lost with high card Ace

    jim replied 3 years, 2 months ago 5 Members · 14 Replies
  • 14 Replies
  • steve-fredlund

    Member
    January 9, 2021 at 9:38 pm

    congrats on the deep run Troy. I like the 3-bet and the c-bet on the flop. I think once you are called there, he just has way too much of his range that’s not folding turn/river as it’s certainly almost all aces. So while you have equity with your straight draw, it loses profitability if you have very little fold equity. I’m more in favor of the give up on the turn and maybe you still get a check/check to see a river. Generally the heads up aggression is good, but I think here it’s a bit too optimistic. But I’m excited to hear about the wizards thoughts.

  • chappo

    Member
    January 10, 2021 at 12:14 am

    The draw was a combo draw on the turn flush and oesd.

    I figured 17 outs.

    I also figured villain here had an ace but, my range has all the ak aq combos with the 3 bet?

    I was hoping for max fold equity but if called half the deck helps me.

    • fivebyfive

      Administrator
      January 10, 2021 at 11:54 am

      Here are my thoughts after looking at some of the solver stats on this. I do like the 3bet here preflop, but I might make my sizing a larger (more like 3x).

      It’s really hard to speculate around accurate ranges heads up, but with the assumptions I made, the solver says that 5d6d is a high frequency check on this flop (almost 97%). When we check this flop, we have a lot more options on this and future
      streets even with this draw, and I think that’s why the solver strongly
      prefers that flop check.

      In the few instances when we do lead with it on the flop, then we’re definitely continuing on this turn, but into this ~22bb pot, we prefer a 9-10bb lead vs. a shove. Once we’re called on the flop, it skews V toward an Ax range and we may not be able to get them to fold. And when we’re shoved on in this spot after leading this turn, we need to fold and that smaller bet gives us the opportunity to get away from it.

      • chappo

        Member
        January 10, 2021 at 5:28 pm

        Thanks Chris.

        • chappo

          Member
          January 11, 2021 at 12:00 am

          Do you think in real time you would play similar to the solver suggestion?

          It seems the biggest problem i caused myself is the bet on the flop, which then caused knock on problems.

          • fivebyfive

            Administrator
            January 11, 2021 at 11:01 am

            This is a pretty complicated spot, and I’m definitely not saying I’d get it right in real time (or even that I’m right about it…I’d be curious what others think). I’d certainly have trouble avoiding a cbet after a 3bet pot and when presented the OESD. I guess we can start to think about this by investigating some other parts of our 3betting range. If we want to lead here with this draw, what makes up our leading value range? Would we lead with KK-55? What about AA, 33, or 44? AK-A10? Junkier hands like Jc10c?Are we even 3betting all these hands?

            Let’s come back to that question in a second. But it’s a good spot to think about and a larger checking range does start to make sense when we’re out of position. An Ace, low, low, rainbow flop is fairly static—the best hand now is more likely to remain the best hand by the river. This is especially true when we get there with a 3bet and call, even though heads up ranges are much wider. This makes it easier for V to call down with Ax than in other spots.

            I haven’t looked at the solver to confirm this, but I suspect this is a much more frequent cbet on a K34, Q34, or J34 rainbow board. Unlike most 3bet/call spots, when we’re heads up, V is likely weighted MORE toward Ax combos than us (unless we’re 3betting every Ax combo heads up?). While V is unlikely to have top of A range (AK, AQ) because they may have 4bet, they have more combos of AJ-A2 in this spot (including the two pair combos).

            This means that while they have the more condensed range, likely capped at two pair, our path to believable bluff/polarization with our OESD is very narrow (it is just really sets and maybe AK that are believable if we fire away and get stacks in. If we suspect V has a decently large Ax range, they will block and more easily call what we’re trying to represent when they hold Ax). This means that while V has condensed value, they are condensed exactly toward the type of range we don’t want them to have. When they have that range, it blocks all of our best bluffs, which makes calling down easier for V.

            To come back to that leading value range on the flop question, I think the only real hands we want to be leading with for value on the flop are 33 and 44. We are likely check raising with some of our better Ax hands (AK, AQ, AA, A3, A4). As we’ve said above, it is too easy on this static board for V to call down with Ax, so we would want to lead with value that both beats and is likely to get called (doesn’t block V having Ax). This ultimately means we have a very small value leading range in this spot even though we were the aggressor, and if that is the case, we should have a very small bluffing range as well.

            After thinking about this spot a lot, and if I wanted to continue the aggression, I’d be more likely to put 56 in my check raising range than in my leading range. If the flop checks through, I can bet with abandon on the turn almost regardless of the turn card.

  • petvet

    Member
    January 11, 2021 at 5:27 pm

    I personally don’t like 3 betting this hand preflop OOP from a 36bb stack and bloating the pot with 6 high. I think we have a lot of time in these games when it gets to HU to find better spots. As played, I think the flop favors your range and you can bet smaller 25% or shift into realization mode with a check (get rid of that 1/2 pot button!) when you bet half pot and get called, I think you can either bet 30- 40% pot or check/call on turn and give up when you don’t hit on the river and go into short stack ninja play with 15bb or so.

    • chappo

      Member
      January 12, 2021 at 3:45 am

      Awesome response Kim.

      As a question – do you have 33%, 66% pot as standard sizes?

      Or some other standard sizings pre-set?

      • This reply was modified 3 years, 2 months ago by  chappo.
    • fivebyfive

      Administrator
      January 12, 2021 at 12:47 pm

      I’d definitely agree in most spots, but I do think this hand should enter our 3bet convo in this spot. Our ranges get really wide heads up, even with 36bb effective. And we need to expand our 3bet range so that we have some board coverage when called and the flop comes all low. To me, this kind of hand is an ideal one to help us expand that 3bet range.

      You could instead advocate for a more polarized 3bet range, which would then include your strong value and absolute trash, like 52 off, and move 5h6h into a calling range. But I prefer a more default merged strategy in these spots until I see that my opponent is overfolding to 3bets. If they’re folding a lot to 3bets, I may shift to making a hand like 5h6h a call and 52-off a 3bet.

      V is often opening 70-85%+ hands in this spot. We should thus be defending quite widely and finding something like ~15-20% of our range as 3bets. I prefer expanding my 3bet range to include hands like this one rather than a hand like A10off. It has more potential to flop well, gives you board coverage, and doesn’t have as many reverse implied odds.

      • petvet

        Member
        January 13, 2021 at 3:30 pm

        I totally agree that in a GTO HU spot where villain is opening 70-85% of hands that 65s should definitely be in a 3bet/fold to 4bet range. However in our home games button rarely opens that high a percentage of hands and often limps with medium/weak strength hands (and occasionally traps), which allows us to put this in our raising (vs limp) or calling (vs raise) range. I guess what I’m trying to say is that if villain’s raising range is tighter then this marginal hand can become a call but as always it is situational and villain dependent IMO…and there’s usually lots of time at this stage of the tournament.

  • chappo

    Member
    January 14, 2021 at 4:49 am

    @jim-reid – suggestion for a forums episode?

  • chappo

    Member
    February 15, 2021 at 12:22 pm

    @rabman50 – Hi Rob – would be great to hear your thoughts?

    @petvet – Him Kim – would be great to hear your thoughts?

  • chappo

    Member
    February 15, 2021 at 12:22 pm

    @rabman50 @petvet – have you guys got any thoughts on the above?

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