RecPoker Forums

Find answers, ask questions, and connect with our community!

  • Playing soft to bust someone out of the tournament.

    Posted by eanderson85 on February 15, 2023 at 9:11 pm

    Lojack shoves 6BB. You call in the Button. Big Blind calls.
    The flop comes and you catch a piece.
    What drives your decision to either play passively to keep the BB in the pot to reduce Lojack’s equity and help ensure that they bust out, or to play aggressively and try to win all of those chips for yourself? Should we EVER play passively?
    Of course, we bet with the nuts, but what if we have the nut flush draw? Or an over pair with pocket 9s?
    We’ve all been there when someone bluffs the “would be” winner out of the pot with a draw and then ends up giving the Lojack a triple up. Makes you a popular fellow.
    Does being in the money make you more likely or less likely to bet?
    How about if it is still in the re-entry stage of the tournament?
    How important is it to bust someone out if it isn’t a bounty tournament and you aren’t on an immediate pay jump?

    rabman50 replied 1 year ago 6 Members · 11 Replies
  • 11 Replies
  • rabman50

    Administrator
    February 16, 2023 at 2:16 pm

    Short answer: There is not much to gain. But there is a small equity increase with each bustout. I would only bet the other person out of the pot with a very strong hand. I have witnessed people get upset when one of the two big stacks bets the other out of the pot. There is an unwritten rule that this kind of collusion is acceptable. With little showdown value it is a no-brainer, but if I have the opportunity to win the entire pot I’m taking it.

  • elvida

    Member
    February 16, 2023 at 2:34 pm

    I think there are a lot of factors to consider not the smallest of which is relative stack size and tournament format. If you are a big stack you don’t really want those small stacks to necessarily bust b/c then you can be more aggressive with other small stacks. Further, there is no guarantee that passive play will not lead to the triple up you everyone fears. Finally, the composition of the side pot (is it dry) goes a long way in determining how aggressive to play. Bluffing into a dry side pot is not worth it. A “wet” side pot? Tharr be chips in that pot!

    The term “no honor among thieves” comes to mind. Too often collusion falls apart when the money comes into view. I try not to count on it. As such, “collude” if it is to your advantage. Play aggressively if it is to your advantage. Don’t get angry with people if they don’t help you. Roll your eyes (at least on the inside) at people who get mad at you for not helping them.

  • fivebyfive

    Administrator
    February 16, 2023 at 6:58 pm

    I agree with Rob and Joe. We mostly want to play chip EV, especially if there is a wet side pot. There are times when you should land in poker jail if you don’t play soft, but those are mostly in satellites and big bubble situations. Let’s say you on the bubble of a satellite and all you need to do is bust the short stack. If either of you bet after calling their all-in, you’re just lighting EV on fire. That’s the most extreme situation. The second spot where this makes a ton of sense is on bubbles. Let’s say you are hand-for-hand on the main event bubble. The opportunity cost of not just running your combined equity to try to bust the player is too high, so I’d much prefer checking down/playing passively in those spots. But most of the time, there are chips to be won, and even if people get annoyed at you for betting, they are often wrong in their assumptions. I don’t defend myself, I just let them think I’m an idiot and scoop the chips. It’s like two prizes for the price of one.

  • gave

    Member
    February 22, 2023 at 3:06 am

    In my opinion, it’s essential to be strategic and base your decision on the specific situation.

    • gave

      Member
      February 22, 2023 at 8:35 am

      “In my opinion, it’s essential to be strategic and base your decision on the specific situation.”

      If you have a strong hand and feel confident, playing aggressively and trying to win all the chips for yourself might make sense. However, if you need more confidence in your hand, it might be better to play passively and keep the BB in the pot to reduce Lojack’s equity and improve your chances of busting them out. I tried both strategies at https://www.ufabet.school/, and I like the second more.

  • rabman50

    Administrator
    March 10, 2023 at 3:05 pm

    Here is a situation where the players did not understand the dynamic at play. There are 8 players left. The payouts are 1 @ $35 and 7 @ $100. So the next player out receives $35 and everyone else receives $100. The SB has .5BB and is all in pre. EP (7BB) calls, HJ (15BB) calls, and BB (1.75BB) checks. The flop is 9TJ rainbow and it checks around. The turn is 9TJ(Q) and it checks around. The river is 9TJQ(7) and the BB goes all-in. I’m in EP with KK and call the HJ calls. BB had 77, HJ had 86, and fortunately the SB had 45 and the tourney was over. I asked why make a bet there? The answer was “I thought my set could be good there”. I responded but that doesn’t matter. The only thing that matters is to take out the SB. The two other players in the hand looked at me like I was from outer space.

  • bchip

    Member
    March 10, 2023 at 6:00 pm

    @FiveByFive Pretty sure the rule is if two players bust at the final table on the same hand, stack size determines the order of finishing.

    If two players bust on the bubble at different tables then they split the prize.

    I think of this situation more as etiquette than anything else. I wouldn’t “collude” in this manner unless it was to my benefit. Side pot is important consideration. And my hands ability to actually be the nuts is the other important consideration.

    If there is no side pot, maximizing EV would dictate not pushing anyone around and hoping the All in player busts.

    If the side pot actually has chips, then I’m likely fighting for those all day.

    Just not on 4 straight board with a set. Lol. My hand never wins there.

    • fivebyfive

      Administrator
      March 10, 2023 at 6:06 pm

      I mostly agree about fighting for sidepots, but in this exact situation or any satellite situation, they don’t really matter. There is no benefit to winning the sidepot, only to busting the .5 bb player. Anyone who gets in the way of that is stealing EV from the whole table.

      In this exact spot, let’s say that the short stack had an 8 and the player still pushed with 77. What if Rob assumes, we’ll no one would ever do this without the nuts, and folds KK assuming they have AK (if stacks were slightly larger, this wouldn’t be unreasonable). Now no one busts and the player with 77 has torpedoed their own quite easy chances of cashing. If with a sidepot, there’s really no benefit to betting without the stone nuts.

      • rabman50

        Administrator
        March 10, 2023 at 9:24 pm

        Or to go a step further. The SB has a K and the MP has an 8. By going all-in the BB now settles for $35.00 and the party is over. There is just no good outcome for the BB jamming the rest of his chips in the middle other than the SB going out.

Log in to reply.