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  • Big ICM decision, Is top pair good?

    Posted by taylormaas on February 8, 2021 at 4:25 pm

    Had an interesting spot last night in the final 6 of a 450 person tourney. I thought it was a really weird spot and usually I don’t like posting hand histories that come down to make a soul read, but wanted to see what others would do in this position.

    Chip stacks are: UTG (19 BBs), MP (10 BBs), CO (54 BBs), BTN (38 BBs), SB (37.5 BBs), BB– Hero (32 BBs)

    folds to BTN who opens to 2.2 BBs, we call in the BB w T9hh.

    Flop: 9d7c4s, we check, they bet 66% (3.7BBs), we call.

    Turn: 2d, check/check

    River: 8s, We lead 1/2 pot (6.5 BBs), they jam for 32 BBs

    So they went for a large sizing on the flop, no reads on what this means but we would stats on them that says they might be someone who C-bets too much (7/8 CBets). As for other stats, they are running 15 VPIP/10 PFR/4 3B. I think this is an auto-call and not really a spot we want to raise given our weak kicker, capped range, and ICM factors. Turn going check/check makes us feel confident about our hand. River we lead trying to get value with top pair, which I think the case can be made to check/call trying to let our opponent bluff into us, but I also don’t expect much for bluffs on this runout. When we get raised, I’m totally lost, I can’t find many hands that take this line. I tanked, and tanked, and tanked thinking of what to do in this spot. So what do you do? Call or fold?

    taylormaas replied 3 years, 2 months ago 3 Members · 6 Replies
  • 6 Replies
  • arw

    Member
    February 8, 2021 at 5:50 pm

    This board is hard to get value from with top pair. On the flop, he c-bets and you call. He checked behind on the 4th street. On the river you value bet but he jams all-in.

    I fold.

    The value range that beats a pair of nines is big on this board. You beat only bluffs.

    My guess is they have an over pair or perhaps hit a set on the river.

  • taylormaas

    Member
    February 8, 2021 at 7:38 pm

    Follow-up question: If you choose to fold, what would be the worst hand that you call with in this spot?

  • tvstensby

    Member
    February 9, 2021 at 2:26 am

    I prefer the check/call line on the river. Value betting as a medium stack in an ICM driven spot is difficult and I therefore tend to keep the pot small.

    I would fold to the jam even though your opponent has a lot of potential bluffs (overcards and ace highs that make a stab on the flop). But as you say it comes down to soul reading. The potential bluffs are there, but is your opponent willing to risk it all in this spot?

    If you believe your opponent will rarely reraise as a bluff you could consider a smaller river bet. 3.5-4 bb? Then it is cheaper to fold and you are more likely get calls from weaker pairs.

    And for the follow up question: Your opponents jamming range is probably polarized and the equity of A9 and two pair will be similar to T9 here. It is the number of bluffs that matter most. I would call with sets and probably top two pair as well (even though I probably should not).

  • arw

    Member
    February 10, 2021 at 1:07 pm

    For all the possible X9 hands, I think T9 is the worst one to call with.

    All the better kickers (A9, K9, Q9, J9) and the worse kickers (98, 97) all have you beat. The weakest 9’s (96, 95, 94, 93, 92) are likely not in the opening range of a 15 vpip player. Thus, T9 is likely the worst one to have on this board.

    I think my line is Q9 –> With J9, T9 I think I’m folding and A9, K9 I think I’m calling.

  • taylormaas

    Member
    February 20, 2021 at 8:11 am

    So this was a weird hand. Like I said previously, I hate posting questions about soul reads but I think there were some fun components to this one. First off, I think I messed up on the river lead. In this specific spot, it’s probably best to just check/call with how the hand played out. I’m targeting a very specific part of his range to call a river bet (i.e. A7/A8/etc.) that I think the better play is to check and allow our opponent to bet into us with some high card hands as well.

    But after I took the lead option, when we get raised I’m struggling to put them on a hand outside of JT. Something about the large sizing on the flop lead me to believe that they have a hand that wishes to take it down immediately, and the check behind on the turn adds to that read. Which if that’s true, overpairs are unlikely, 9x hands are unlikely, but there are still draws and over cards to fade. The other potential option in my head is 88, but with the check behind on the turn, I feel like the 88 would have put another bet in this spot with the intention of checking behind on most rivers (at least that’s what I would do, but it’s not the best idea to say my opponent will act the same as me).

    With ICM calcs — If we fold, we have an ICM of $792, I we call and are wrong, its a payout of $355, and if we call and are right, it goes up to $1237. So through ICM math, we need to be correct 49.5% of the time to justify the call.

    Like I said before, I struggled with the decision. I knew I had to be right a decent amount of the time, but didn’t know the ICM would say we have to be right almost 50% in this spot. And honestly, what it came down to for me was blockers. If I’m concerned about one specific hand, and I block that hand, it’s less likely that they have it. I just could not fathom another value hand that they play each of these streets in this way unless it’s JT or a bluff. So I decided to call with my T9, and probably would have called with J9 as well. I think some better 9’s like A9/K9/Q9 would have been a fold just because of the lack of blockers. just holding a J or T makes its 25% less likely that they have JT. And if we are talking about a very tight range for our opponent, that 25% is a lot.

    In the end, I called and our opponent flipped over J8o. I’m totally unsure what they were thinking turning second pair into a bluff like that, but it worked in our favor. But the very next hand I was dealt KK, busted one of the short stacks and held onto the chip lead until I won the tourney. Guess we got lucky with that hero call.

  • taylormaas

    Member
    February 21, 2021 at 11:08 am

    So I ran the solver for this one. It actually came back with a similar answer to what I was describing above. It folded hands as strong as A9/K9/Q9 while it called with J9/T9 with the majority of the frequency because of the blocker affect. It also prefers to call the T9 over the J9 in this spot as well.

    It is worth noting that it much prefers the check/call option on the river with our hand. And it has our opponent’s hand (J8) as a 100% call on the river, which makes a lot of sense.

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