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  • Final table bet. Good? Bad? Why?

    Posted by Unknown Member on September 22, 2020 at 12:47 pm

    Here is a final table hand I played last Nov at the Venetian. 7 players left.

    UTG 35BB -folds

    MP2 3BB – all in.

    HJ 18 BB -fold

    CO- 15 BB -call

    BTN -18 BB -call

    SB -12 BB -call

    BB (me) 30BB -call J8s

    Total pot 15BB plus antes

    Flop 10 7 3r checked through, turn Qr checked through, river 2.

    I bet out 10 BB other players fold and MP2 wins the pot with King high.

    Do you like or dislike my play and why?

    tvstensby replied 3 years, 6 months ago 4 Members · 9 Replies
  • 9 Replies
  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    September 26, 2020 at 1:17 am

    ok no takers 🙁

    I would argue that this was a good bet on my part. so many times we are involved in “checking it down” with multiple players to eliminate the all in player and ladder up one spot. These players were not happy with me including the other big stack. (Two of the players stated they folded a pair and couldn’t understand why I bet them out. When you are the big stack at a final table you want to keep the short stack in! This continues to put ICM pressure on the medium and other shorter stacks. With the stack sizes in this example, my pushing everyone else, allowed the shortstack to recover to a similar stack as the others but more importantly kept all of them at around the same size. This allowed me to take down several pots over the next 30 minutes unchallenged.

  • Unknown Member

    Deleted User
    September 26, 2020 at 1:19 am

    Also if I had not push them off the pot, yes one player would have been eliminated but the winner of the pot would have been much closer in chips to myself and the big stack.

  • fivebyfive

    September 26, 2020 at 7:58 pm

    This is an interesting spot. I’m really surprised no one raises before you to isolate. At those stack depths, it seems like a mistake to just flat. Regardless, once it gets to you, I think this is a great hand to flat with out of the BB.

    With a completely dry sidepot and no action reaching the river, I don’t mind your bet at all. You’re very likely behind the small stack, but I think you can win this pot enough and are so rarely called by any of the other players that it’s worth it. You’re going to lose most of the time anyway, why not give yourself a chance to push out some of the other naked high cards and take it down when MP2 has something like 8s9s…

  • binkley

    September 26, 2020 at 11:12 pm

    If the short stack had been eliminated, would there have been an immediate and significant pay jump for everybody? This would be one downside of the bluff.

  • tvstensby

    September 27, 2020 at 1:34 am

    I am skeptical of this play. Even though you keep the small stack in you have the biggest stack at the table on your immediate left and you have to target the middle stacks through that player afterwards.

    Your best option to pick up pots is when one of the middle stacks opens and you can three-bet them before the action gets to the big stack. But you risk that the big stack wakes up with a hand behind you.

    If helps if the big stack is very passive/cautious and will let you play through him, but I still think that risking 10bb is to much. When you <font face=”inherit”>get called and double up one of the middle stacks you have less room to </font>maneuver.

    Also you have almost no equity in the main pot as 80.9% of hands beat you. You only win when your opponent jammed with one of the hands in grey in the chart below:

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      September 27, 2020 at 9:51 am

      sorry, I can’t access your chart. I agree with you as a big stack you want to be putting pressure on the medium/low medium stacks. Usually the the second and third shortest stacks are the ones under the most ICM pressure. In this specific scenario, the other big stack was out of the hand and I closed the action pre-flop. With it checking through on the flop and turn and such a dry board, I was fairly confident the winning hand would be a single, random pair. Betting out 10 BB was big enough for anyone who called me and lost would have been crippled in stack size. If I was called and lost then yes that player would have chipped up nicely. I would have been left with a 20 BB stack which I felt was a manageable stack though obviously not as nice as 30 bb. Most of the money was in the top 3 payouts but it was a tourney with 250-300 entrants so each ladder up was significant.

      So many times we check through a hand with multiple players when one other is all in. More players in the hand increases the likelihood of busting the all in player. I have done this many times with a medium or shorter stack. This specific scenario was a opportunity to continue putting maximum ICM pressure on many players at the table. I was able to chip up nicely and I believe, easier over the next 30 minutes. It doesn’t come up often but as a big stack at a final table, look for these spots.

    • Unknown Member

      Deleted User
      September 27, 2020 at 9:52 am

      (I also bet the 10 BB fully expecting to lose the main pot to the all in player)

    • tvstensby

      September 27, 2020 at 4:46 pm

      Not sure where that chart went, but I try again as an attachment this time. In case it does not come through the combos J8s does not loose to on this board are: J8, J6, J5, J4, 98, 96, 95, 94, 86, 85, 84, 65, 64, 54 (total 14×16 = 224 combos). And several of these are most likely not in the MP2 jamming range.

      Given that you were able to chip up nicely, I guess that the other big stack did not cause you any problems. Part of the reason I am skeptical is that I feel that the other big stack potentially benefits more than you by keeping the small stack in (since he has position on you). However, if the other big stack does not take advantage of this, then I understand that it is tempting to keep more players in.

      At the end of the day this is a very exploitative play and we need to be confident that the situation that arises afterwards is beneficial to us. Otherwise, risking 10bb is too much (in my opinion).

  • binkley

    September 27, 2020 at 12:33 pm

    So with most of the money in the top three spots, eliminating a player in 7th place isn’t that significant. With a super small stack still in there, the big stacks can put a lot more ICM pressure on the medium stacks. So there is merit to keeping a small stack alive.

    In this case, the small stack became a medium stack by picking up the pot. But there was a benefit of preventing a medium stack from becoming a big stack.

    But you are risking 1/3 of your stack and becoming a medium stack yourself. I don’t think I would make this play but I’m glad it worked out for you.

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