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Interesting Hand from ORAH TOC Final Table Discussion
This past Wednesday night I partcipated in the ORAH TOC discussion. I came in second in the tournament and I was involved in several hands were I thought the panel might provide insight. The hand below generated a lot of discussion and the panel asked me to post the hand here for further discussion.
I record some of the tournaments I play in, mainly my home game and RecPoker final tables I’ve been involved in, on Apple QuickTimePlayer. I couldn’t figure out a good way to insert the hand into this post so I will recap as detailed as possible. So, here we go:
There were four of us left and we had broken the bubble several hands earlier. The chip stacks at the start of the hand were:
Me (lespaul99) 38,505
Gloves1010. 37,346
Fergie56. 35,097
Kekgeek65. 14,052
I had Kh9h UTG and raised to 1575 (2.25 BBs), fergie56 called on the button, kekgeek65 folded in the SB but gloves1010 three bet to 6300 from the BB. The pot was now 10160. I was getting 2.2-1 to call and I felt like this hand was at the bottom of my calling range. Also, if I called fergie56 would likely call as she was getting great pot odds to do so. So, after some thought I did call as did fergie56. The pot was now 19610.
The flop was 8c9d7d, a decent flop for me but still concerning. Gloves1010 in the BB was first to act and checked. I was next UTG and I wondered if he was trying to trap but I decided, after some thought, to bet. I chose 9800, about half pot. Fergie56 called and gloves 1010 folded quickly. The pot now was bloated to 39210. I had 22315 behind and fergie56 had 18907 left.
The turn was a Kd giving me top two pair and now the board was 8c9d7dKd. Very scary. I was first to act and I thought about what fergie56 range was. I thought she might have a combo draw like Ad10d or Qd10d but I think she may have raised my turn bet. During our discussion Wednesday most agreed that she most likely had Ah10h or Ac10c or perhaps 10c9c or 10h9h.
Spoiler alert, after a bit I did shove and fergie56 folded pretty quickly. And this is one of the reasons the panel asked me to post this hand. What do you think she had? And for my learning experience, please tell me how you would have played this from my perspective.
I don’t use a HUD when I play. I’m too cheap (haha!!) right now to invest in one but I’m rethinking it as I may play more online in the future. I have attached some screen images below (best I could do given my limited knowledge of the QuickTimePlayer app) that may help a little.
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9 Replies
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Interesting hand and spot.
So we start the hand with approx. 55bbs, think its a completely standard open with K9hh, once you get called and 3 bet though personally I would of folded this hand (Only way I don’t is if Gloves has been 3 betting you a ton in this tournament). Im not loving investing approx. 16% of my stack playing it 3 ways in middle position each. (I think you make the correct assumption that Fergie is calling here a lot pre once you call). Just personally think there are so many flops that can come that we can hit and still hate the spot that we are in (Like this hand).
So obviously we hit a flop that we enjoy 8c 9d 7d, so for our actual hand I think this flop is solid but it is still a pretty uncomfortable spot. Obviously we hit top pair and 2nd kicker but I still don’t love our spot. So Gloves decided to check here after 3 betting pre. What hands do we think he is checking here. I think he is checking almost 100% of his Ax combos that do not contain a diamond. I think he checking 66 and 55, I also thinking he could be checking some of his overpairs like JJ, QQ, KK, AA. This is a terrible board for almost everyover pair in a 3 way, 3 bet pot. So he could be going for some pot control on the flop. Just something to think about.
Now this is where it is really hard. When we bet half pot here what hands are we trying to get value from. We are behind all combo draws A10dd, AJdd, its 50%/48% on Ad10x, we are just slight favorites in Ax10x. I just don’t know what hands we get to call here where we are actually ahead and can get value outside of A7, A8, we can also get value for QJ. Then we are behind, all sets (What are in fergie and Gloves range), J10, A9, 2 combos of 98 suited, 2 combos of 97 suited, 2 combos of 87 suited. all of Gloves overpairs. I just don’t think we get much value from our bet here (Obviously in this exact circumstance we get value). Just think we get get jamed on so much when we bet and I think we are forced to call it off once jammed on in an ugly spot and at best we are apporx 53% on those drawing hands. So personally I would check call here.
Now on the turn, I think you just have to go with it. You hit top 2. You now are ahead of all here 2 pair combos that you were previously behind. We are now have all their straight draws dominated. We also eliminate 3 hands from Fergies possible range in KQdd, KJdd, K10dd. The King of D might be the best diamond card that could come for you because it eliminates a lot of there possible combo draws that they had.
Obviously I am not an expect. Just how I personally think about this hand. Really ugly spot what I think can be really avoided be folding pre. Just my opinion on the hand. Was fun playing you heads up and can’t wait to play you again soon.
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I definitely butchered this hand. I should have folded pre (or even 3!) but couldn’t resist when getting such good odds, although with my specific hand an argument could be made to back raise/shove after opener’s range is capped. As played I should have shoved on the flop (or folded), but wimped out and called. When I gain more possible equity on the turn I have to call off my stack in this spot I think. All around, I misplayed every street!!!???? Tune in to forums recording tonight to find out what I had…
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Tough hand on every street, tune into the podcast for possible better ways to play it!
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Kim, my apologies for not seeing your responses sooner. Where can I listen to your podcast??
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Jacob, I forgot to mention in my post that gloves1010 had three bet at 3 times from the blinds previously. That was the primary reason I called. Thanks for response!! I enjoy constructive criticism and the discussion. I think my game is improving but there is so much to learn. When I get a chance I’ll recap the hand where I misclicked against you.
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One part of this review that you are missing is that your flop sizing is very problematic as it leaves you with about a .5 to 1 SPR. It almost completely eliminates your ability to get folds on future streets. I would either bet much smaller OTF (like 20% on this wet & coordinated board), check…or even consider over bet jamming based on V’s. A half sized pot bet here is a mistake. SPR (stack to pot ratio) is so critical in thinking about bet sizing and the impact it will have on future streets. We are shooting ourself in the foot when we reduce our ability to leverage fold equity on later streets.
It sounds like the SB had been making a higher than normal % of 3-bets when you went 4-handed which strengthens a case for a pre-flop jam. Especially if the button is not playing a mixed over call strategy (which they are likely not) and has a capped range. I prefer folding over jamming. When raise or fold are both viable options, making a compromising call is almost always the worst line.
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