[yamel]

Really interesting spots to come back to back. I’ve played the zoom games from bovada that I believe play the same and agree there are are some aggressive players…I’ve also noticed ranges for getting it in are a bit tighter since you can wait it out till you get good hands. You can also check in on what they had after 24 hours, right? Should make for good results…Here are my initial thoughts, look forward to others:

Hand 1: This is not a spot I want to call and have to play out of position or create some dead money for the original raiser to come over the top. While ranges aren’t capped, I do think they include AK, JJ, 1010 played strongly, so I would raise to around $9 , put some pressure on original opener and leverage some fold equity to win or get heads up. We can get it in on favorable flops (don’t include an A or K) . If either opponent goes all in, I’d narrow down to AA, KK and some AK or lower pair bluffs…I probably fold to a jam since they can call with a lot of hands in position, must be pretty strong to push.

Hand 2: The HJ being pretty deep in this hand makes me a little more concerned – could be running hot, or could be very selective on range he’s playing aggressively. if it was only the CO putting in ~$13, I think this is an easy call, but with two left to act and we have no money in there and a push by us doesn’t give us a ton of fold equity given the large pot, I think I make a nitty fold and find a better spot. It is a big call to make to get raised or play out of position when you get more than one caller. This spot sucks b/c CO could be trying to push out late position opens with a hand we crush (e.g. middle pair), but our position doesn’t seem to let us play this one out.

Hand 3: The call in between from the CO makes me want to raise, but unfortunately the button beat us to it. This one I call with a hand that can flop a strong pair and/or lots of equity with draws. And if the action gets a little crazy with one or more opponents getting it in, we can easily fold. Once we pot control a bit on the flop by not raising, it opens up more moves on flop/turn to either flop well, or take it away on turn if others aren’t interested.

[binkley]

Thanks for your thoughts. Yes, I downloaded the full hand history and now know the cards of all the villains. I’m waiting a bit before posting full results to give others a chance to comment.

[arw]

Hand 1 w/ QQ

LJ has everyone covered and opens to 3bb.

HJ 3-bets to 10bb.

SB Hero has QQ. We have the BB yet to act and also two players who “like” their hand enough to invest money. The pot size should be ~ 14.5bb.

Should the Hero fold, call, or 4-bet w/ QQ in this spot?

1) In a tournament, folding QQ is an option. In a cash game, I don’t think it’s a good option pre-flop but sometimes the conditions are right. That being said, you’ve only invested 0.5 bb, you’re out of position, and you have two players (maybe three players) acting behind you. It’s a small loss w/ a big hand that can easily be beat by the river.

2) Calling seems iffy. Playing QQ for a call seems like you’re playing the hand to “minimize your losses during a cooler” instead of playing the hand with the mentality of “I need to maximize winnings against weaker hands”.

3) Raising seems best and yet risky. As you’ll see below, the cold 4-bet will put you in a very polarized spot where only stronger hands will call you, weaker hands will fold, and you likely have to risk a large portion of your stack. For example, If you 4-bet to somewhere like 20 – 22 bb, most players will likely 5-bet play back at you with only AA, KK, and AK while folding the rest. The effective stack is ~100 bb so if they shove, you might have a tough spot. Ideally, you want to play low risk high reward. The conditions are risky since you’re out of position, multiple players are in the hand, and your hand is not that strong against the calling range or raising range of your opponent. Speaking of, if you 5-bet to 20 bb and one player flat calls…What is your plan post flop? The pot size will be ~50 bb and the effective stack will be ~80 bb. These stack sizes are weird and tough to play without risk. If you c-bet small (20 bb), if they call, you could shove turn with 60 bb into 90 bb or 2/3 pot. This applies some pressure but not a ton. Another route is to c-bet 40 bb or 1/2 of your stack, but I don’t like it. Lastly, you could just shove on the flop which is 150% of the pot size. This is an over-bet where I’m not confident you would be getting many stronger hands to fold when you make it.

To make a better decision, build an opening range and a 3-betting range that makes sense. My guess is the opener has something like 22+, A2+, JT+. The 3-bettor might have something like 22+, AK – AT, A2s – A5s, and suited broadway.

After much thought, I have no idea what to do with QQ here.

Short Aside

I once played a $200 6 max NL tournament at running aces.

Jason Seitz opened under the gun

Minnesota Molly 3-bet,

I 4-bet from the BB with QQ,

Jason folds,

Molly 5-bets,

I call.

The flop is Ace high. I check, she shoves, I fold with 15 bb left.

I played it terrible, I learned a lot, I think QQ is trouble.

[arw]

Hand 2 w/ QQ

Sorry @Binkley , I’m not doing this again.

Hand 3 w/ AQss

I would raise this a large portion of the time. If the button is competent, this looks like a possible squeeze play after seeing a small raise and 1 caller, by 3-betting to $3.00, he/she is forcing everyone behind to play honestly and likely will take down the pot. AQss is above average for this range. You don’t want to be called by AA or AK because they hands have you crushed. KK and QQ still offer you a chance to get ahead assuming that the HJ or CO didn’t muck an ace.

My plan would be to 4-bet to $8-$9 or about 1/4 of your stack. This doesn’t commit you to the pot if things don’t go as planned. If you 4-bet larger, you will increase your fold equity but you also invest a bigger piece of your next bet. If you 4-bet smaller, you offer good pot odds to an opponent who has position on you.

[imalouigi]

Responding to hand #3 because I think this is the most interesting spot of all 3 hands. The CO over call usually caps CO’s range which should make BTN’s 3-betting range wider. That said, this is on the smaller side for sizing when factoring in the blinds so it should be largely weighted towards value hands and a much smaller percentage of 3-bets that are light or marginal.

Cold calling out of position here will not be profitable in the long run so this is a clear 4-bet or fold spot. Our hand feels too strong in a low stakes cash game to be folding here but it’s not unreasonable. I prefer to 4! and will have mostly R/F in my range but am willing to call off in low stakes cash with any relevant history on a villain (assuming it’s a ring game). Obviously, we don’t get that with zoom style cash games. I would size my 4-bet to $12-$13.

In summary, fold pre or R/F. Results?

[Unknown Member]

Love the discussion!

Hand 1: I’m 4 betting to 10$ and shoving the flop if there is no A or K. Thinking that if my 4 bet was called preflop I’m facing AK, JJ, or 1010. If one of the players shoves one me preflop, I’m likely calling facing 16 combos of AK and 12 combos of AA and KK.

Hand 2: Without any additional information on the players, I’m folding QQ in the BB to a 4 bet shove all in with 2 players behind me that have me both covered and have shown aggression. The Btn at these stakes, in my experience, they are rarely behind QQ.

Hand 3: to me is a raise fold spot. In a cash game I’m likely to fold and look for a better spot vs playing this hand out of position against multiple players. In a tournament depending at what stage we are at and stack sizes I’m either folding or shoving.

[binkley]

Thanks everybody for your feedback.

Results:

#1

In game thoughts: With JJ, this is a snap fold. AA, KK, & AKs are snap 4-bets. Not closing the action, I don’t like a call. With a LJ as the original raiser, I felt less confident in a cold 4-bet.

Action: I folded.

Villain hands:

LJ opened AJo

HJ 3bet with Q9s

**************

#2

In game thoughts: A 50BB 4-bet shove should really from a tight range. This type of overbet shove is often AK but can still be AA or KK. It can occasionally be JJ but rarely a pair weaker than that.

Action: Hero folded.

Villain hands:

LJ opened with K3s

HJ 3-bet with JTs

CO 4-bet shove with AKo

***************

#3

In game thoughts: HJ open and CO call seems like a really good squeeze spot. It may be that BN is trying to take advantage of that. This is a raise or fold spot.

Action: Hero 4-bets to $6.75 (2.25x AJ 3-bet).

HJ and CO fold. BN calls.

Flop: Ts Qh 5c

Hero cbets to $6. BN folds

BN had AdJd

Post game thoughts: Given the loose opens and 3bets, QQ is certainly strong enough to stack off against the opponents that day. I’ll be reviewing more hand histories to see if this a common theme or just a one day outlier.

[binkley]

Some additional information on Hand #3:

HJ original raiser: 44

CO caller: JJ

Interesting to think about how this hand may have played out if CO 3-bet holding JJ as is more standard.