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  • What is value here?

    Posted by eanderson85 on April 5, 2022 at 11:04 pm

    14 hands on opponent. They shove an 8 high flop for 2X pot. I have to call 2 pots to win 5 pots for 40% pot odds.
    I have 12 outs (Plus 1 over).
    Using the rule of 2 and 4, (12*4) – (12-9) = 45% equity.
    So, I call.
    My question is, what are they betting for value here?
    You want a call with sets and 2 pairs. Top pair needs protection, or “put money in the pot while you’re ahead”, but 2X seems big for any scenario. Do you do this with 4 3 or 7 6?
    I put them on 2 broadways with no backdoors trying to steal the pot, and I was wrong.
    Looking at the results, how would you play villains’ hand as the preflop aggressor?

    elvida replied 2 years ago 3 Members · 2 Replies
  • 2 Replies
  • tvstensby

    Member
    April 6, 2022 at 12:09 pm

    I would probably fold to this bet. Expecting that the hands my opponent does this with includes a significant portion of better flush draws (typically the nut flush draw). This reduces the equity of a call considerably.

    You also need to improve even when your opponent only holds a blocker to the nut flush, such as As3d. Or overcards. So you barely have the correct odds vs the worst bluffs in your opponents range.

    In position in a three way pot your opponent should either check behind or make a standard continuation bet. I prefer checking. Does not see the value of jamming with a low pair vs two opponents.

  • elvida

    Member
    April 6, 2022 at 2:20 pm

    To your specific question, for the villain with 33 I would fold preflop. If I felt I had to play it for some reason, I would shove. The action says why, he ends up multiway (5 way!) with a hand that plays terribly multi way in a bloated pot with a SPR of just over 2. As played, he should check and fold to any bet unless he hits his set, with his best hope a cheap showdown which is unlikely to happen.

    (What follows is a discussion of the rest of the hand…as this was not your expressed question, ignore if you like!)

    That said, when he jams you should fold. The range that he SHOULD do this with are sets, overpairs and flush draws. With the flush draws being his best bluffs (as semi-bluffs). This is the bottom of your range, despite the favorable flop. Because most of his bluffs will be flush draws, I think that when you are counting outs, I think you should discount the A-T spade outs because the most likely hands takes this line are sets and flush draws. You further should discount the 2 of spades because if he does have a set you lose to boats (88,55) and quads (22). Further, if he has a spade in his hand serving as a blocker, thus lowering the available outs you have. In this hand, while the pot odds give you 40% your equity against his range is right at 40%. To me it is a fold, because it potentially will put you out of the tournament for at best essentially a breakeven spot. There are probably better spots from a strategic standpoint. One thing I have to regularly remind myself is that pot odds should always just be the starting point.

    I think that the trouble here was playing this hand at this stack depth in the first place, as I would just dump this hand at this stack depth (if I am playing my A game…this is not a certainty). 25 bb is hard size to play and it puts you in these weird spots. I would tend to favor the large pairs. 97s just doesn’t play well enough in these small stack situations. To wit, you got a favorable flop and you don’t really know what to do or what you are up against when he jams. BTW, I think that villain’s play is “aspirational” and really turned the best hand at the time into a bluff. Nearly all cards T and R are bad for him . He really needs you to fold. Although it worked out because of the run out, given his hand on this flop you were the favorite.

    BTW VERY cool meme….

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