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check raising flop as pre-flop raiser
Just saw this hand from a call-in show, host said its hard to have a range that check raises flop after having led pre-flop…any thoughts on this take? What kinda situation do you open pre-flop, then XR flop?
2-5NL $1350 effective, V has a maniacal image
folds to CO with As3s, Hero bets $40, button calls
[$80] Flop: 3h 4h 3c Hero checks, btn bets $45, hero XR to $145 btn calls
[$145] Turn: 3h 4h 3c Kc Hero checks, btn $200, hero XR to $575 btn calls
[$1440] River: 3h 4h 3c Kc 8c Hero check, btn jams $800 Hero calls, loses to K3off
I think i would probably c-bet flop unless against the most aggressive opponent. Also think the turn line is kinda strange b/c you remove all bluffs from maniacs range when he calls. Would love to call turn and raise river when hearts miss in case he goes crazy with a flush draw.
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5 Replies
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This one is super interesting. I definitely think you have to have some value check-raises in your range when you are the pre-flop aggressor IF (big if) you have some bluffs & semi-bluffs in your range. I don’t think this is as important if your line on the flop never includes a check raise. I can see doing this against an aggressive player but it’s hard to have enough value hands to do this with where this can be a frequent and balanced approach. I would love to break this down and discuss with some of the geniuses of this community.
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2/5 No Limit
Effective stack is 270 bb.
Pre-flop
Hero has As3s in the Cutoff and makes it $40 or 8 bb pre-flop.
Villain is a maniac and calls on the button.
Pot Size = $80 = 16 bb
Flop
The flop is 3h 4h 3c.
Hero checks
Villain bets $45 or 9 bb.
Hero check-raises to $145 or 29 bb.
Villain calls $100 more.
Pot Size = $80 + $290 = 16 bb + 58 bb
Pot Size = $370 = 74 bb
Turn
The board reads 3h 4h 3c Kc.
Hero checks
Villain bets $200 or 40 bb.
Hero check-raises to $575 or 115 bb.
Villain calls $375 more.
Pot Size = $80 + $290 + $1150 = 16 bb + 58 bb + 230 bb
Pot Size = $1520 = 324 bb
River
The board reads 3h 4h 3c Kc 8c
Hero checks
Villain bets $800 All In
Hero calls $800 more.
Pot Size = $80 + $290 + $1150 + $1600 = 16 bb + 58 bb + 230 bb + 320 bb
Pot Size = $3120 or 624 bb
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Pot Odds
- On the flop, the villain bets 9 bb into 16 bb giving pot odds of about 2.5 to 1.
- On the flop, the hero check-raises to 29 bb giving pot odds of about 2.2 to 1.
- On the turn, the villain bets 40 bb into 74 bb giving pot odds of about 2.8 to 1.
- On the turn, the villain check-raises to 115 bb giving pot odds of about 2.5 to 1.
- On the river, the villain jams 160 bb into 324 bb giving pot odds of about 2.0 to 1.
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Value Range
- 44 — this hand flopped a full-house. This hand should feel confident that willing to enlarge the pot size.
- 43 — this hand flopped the 2nd best full-house. I don’t see the villain calling 8 bb pre-flop. The 4d3d and 4s3s are likely candidates for the pre-flop call. They should feel confident and willing to enlarge the pot size whenever possible. This hand also might not re-raise the check-raise because it isn’t “the nuts” and calling the check-raise conceals hand strength.
- AA — this hand has the best two-pair. It should be confident most of the time that it’s ahead but I expect it to AA the brakes after watching the check-raise action. I’m not confident that AA is even possible with the given action on a paired board.
- KK — this hand has a strong two pair that turned into the best full-house. Based on pre-flop action, I don’t think this hand is in the villains range. That being said, KK is one of my favorite hands to slow play but I’m not sure that I will make this play on the Button.
- K4 — this hand is a semi-weak two pair. It can beat some but not all combos of two pair. It’s also one of those hands where strong players know to slow down because it can’t beat AA.
- 88 — this hand is possible but unlikely since a ton of money went in on the flop and turn. I don’t think this hand ever sees a river.
- A3 — the best possible “trips and our hero’s hand. It’s very unlikely that the villain also has this hand.
- worse trips — this hand will likely love the flop and try to get some value. Only the strongest kickers will likely go for 3 streets of values. Weaker kickers are harder to judge but I assume that most will not go all 3 streets.
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Bluffing Range
- The bluffing range is likely very small.
- The flop has two hearts which make a flush-draw possible. This draw missed and our opponent still bet 160 bb on the river.
- The turn and river completed the runner runner club flush. If the villain has this draw, then he/she likely has some kind of combo draw. The board has very few combo draws that make any sense.
- None of these flush draws can contain a “3”. They can’t have trips and a flush draw. I personally think this makes a flush draw a lot less likely. The most dangerous flush draws are Ac4c and AhKh.
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Key Points:
- Against the value range, A3 is behind 21 combos of full-house (44, KK, 88, K3) and ahead of 6 combos of any over-pair like (AA) and ahead of 12 combos of any weaker trips like (Q3, J3, T3, 93, 73, 63, 53, 32). In other words, most of the value range is beating us on this board. We only have a few outs if we’re beat. The risk is HIGH and reward is HIGH.
- The double check-raise is not a <u style=”font-style: italic;”>normal play. It likely takes perfect conditions and probably happens during a cooler like:
- Ace high flush vs. King high flush
- Large full-house vs. Small full-house
- Trips w/ strong kicker vs. Trips w/ weaker kicker
- The hero definitely over-valued their hand. The action and board texture kind of screamed “full house”. The value range is mostly composed of full-house combos and only a few bluffing hands. In my opinion, the double check-raise unnecessarily bloated the pot with a semi-strong hand. In No Limit, I would play this hand using a little more pot control. On the turn, the pot size changed from 74 bb to 324 bb!!
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The ole, elusive double check raise.
I agree with everyone else, this isn’t a spot where I would be going for that second check raise. I also like a turn call and evaluate on the river. We have a strong hand, but this deep we don’t necessarily have a stack off hand.
When V calls our second x-raise, we’re in big trouble, and I think I’m getting away from every non river A or 3.
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With some…um…”robust”…3betting ranges out of the blinds vs LP opens, I find LOTS of spots to XR as the pre-flop aggressor with a mix of value and bluffs – there are so many perks to this: Other players often decide to steal at a lower frequency when they are facing more 3bets pre-flop and XRs post-flop (I know I do); you can quickly develop “Float Bet Flop” stats on your foes to see who does it widely enough to really go after with bluff XRs; by adding more 3betting hands you get to cover more boards with actual value hands and ALSO represent value in more spots when you’re bluffing – all at the same time; you think cbetting can be profitable at high frequencies? SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND the check-raise – for the same reason (perceived strength) the XR is a really reliable tool against foes that are not thinking in terms of ranges and post-flop lines. Try it!
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